The transcription of the video is below. 

Michelle Graef’s background. How & why she joined the solar industry and eventually Meyer Burger

Kerim: Hi, everyone. This is Kerim, Kerim Baran, with SolarAcademy. I have Michelle Graef from Meyer Burger with me today. Michelle, good to see you, good to see you again. 

Michelle: Ah, great to see you, as always, love this.

Kerim: Yeah. So today we’re going to talk about Meyer Burger and its long history in the solar industry. But before we go in there, Michelle, I’d like to talk a little bit about your background, and how and when you came into the solar industry and the things you have done over the past years and how you found yourself at Meyer Burger.

Michelle: Yeah, I love that and thank you for doing that. So interestingly enough, before I got into the solar industry, I was in the craft beer industry. So I was in craft beer for a little over a decade from manufacturing to distribution in multiple states and kind of had the kind of tenure you have when you know like all the crazy stories and the details, and all that. 

And in 2019, my dad got sober in his life for the first time, and on his one-year anniversary, I got to be there when he got the coin, when he got his one-year coin. And it was just such an awesome thing to see. And by the way, that was about six years ago that he got that, and he’s still been sober. It’s like totally awesome. 

But at the same time, I left and it was like I just can’t be in this industry anymore. I still think it’s such a cool story, and there are so many cool things in the craft beer industry. I just no longer had the passion to help sell it. 

So I started looking around and asking myself, “Wait, you know, what do I want to do? Where do I want to go?” And I had been considering solar for my own house. And so I said, “I might as well look into the solar industry.” Kind of sat down with a few companies that were in my backyard, which is Ohio and got an opportunity with each of them. 

But the funny thing was, you know, they were just like, “Well, we don’t really care about what your background is. Everybody starts at ground zero right? Everybody works their way up from the bottom.” 

So no problem, completely shifted, 2020 go into a solar installer. And within 70 days, COVID happened. So now I’m like a complete industry change, I’ve got COVID. They want me like in homes with homeowners. It was a lot, right? But it was also kind of the moment, that says like, “Either you rise to the occasion, or you let it swallow you.” And so I feel great about the fact that I kind of rose to the occasion. And so I did the street level stuff. I went into the homes. I knocked on some doors, I sold, and then you know, I wasn’t too bad at it. 

Some of the strengths that I had from my previous industry, kind of got the opportunity to meet what openings that they had. And so I got the opportunity to move into more of a training role and then start to run the training department and then sort of add internal communications into the whole mix. So I was doing a little bit of internal communications, internal conversations, training, a little bit of everything. It was a ton of fun. 

And then you know, ultimately, that company went out of business. And so I moved on to another installer, but went to the other end of the spectrum. So the first one, yeah, 14, 15 states much bigger. This one much smaller, just a couple of states in my backyard in Ohio and I wanted to try to do something a little bit smaller. They had an opportunity for someone to take on marketing. I had been doing some sales and marketing when I was in the beer side of things. So we kind of applied what I knew from that over into their world. 

And you know, 5 to 6 months later, they would also fall victim to what we’ve sort of seen in the solar industry. So at that point, I’d also gotten exposed to Meyer Burger. This was the third panel brand that I’d kind of get to learn and know. And they reached out. 

Kerim: As you were selling it to homeowners? Is that – 

Michelle: Exactly right. 

Kerim: – You were selling multiple brands of panels. Yeah. 

Michelle: And I loved their story. I loved the quality and I just thought it was just a really cool brand out there, and they reached out. Ardes Johnson did, and so, “Okay, let’s talk about what you might do here with us.” And I was lucky enough to be offered a role there on the marketing side. And so that’s where I’ve been for a little less than a year. But I came in with the knowledge of the brand as a whole from the previous installer. 

And even more importantly, I came in with the knowledge of what it’s like to be an installer in the US. And it’s not easy, right? And I know what you really want from your manufacturers, what a partnership actually means from the other side of the table, and I understand the struggle and the hurdle of overcoming objections at the kitchen table. 

So it’s been really cool to be able to take this sort of rapid fire experience and turn it around into an empathetic way to help installers actually grow in a meaningful way, not just making all that money. So this is really cool. But I’m very excited. It’s all about partnership. 

And so that’s been my journey. I don’t know. 

Kerim: Yeah, that is great. So that’s a great, great background, and the fact that you’ve lived the life of an installer and installer salesperson and have seen all their challenges, it makes you a great resource and a leader at Meyer Burger, I have no doubt. And I already have knowledge of that from our previous conversations.

Michelle: It’s super fun. I’ve actually helped to install on three different projects. So I’ve been on two roofs, one of which scared the heck out of me. It was a really steep roof, but I did it. Then the other one was a ground mount. So it’s been cool. I’ve actually been able to carry a solar panel up a ladder, you know, harnessed it and like getting down and dirty with everyone. So, yeah. I think it’s been a ton of fun. There’s, you know, always more to learn. But I’m thankful for where I am now.

Kerim: And that I know how interested and energized and excited you become when we talk about educating the world, about all the great knowledge you guys hold at Meyer Burger institutionally inside the company, but also like how that’s a natural part of your personality as well. So I say, let’s go dive into it right now.

Michelle: Yeah, enough about me. Let’s talk about the company. All right?

How is Meyer Burger?

Kerim: Yeah. So tell us, who is Meyer Burger? And why is it a unique company in the solar industry? I guess we can start with the founders, the founders’ story. I remember that. 

Michelle: Yeah. I love it. And the right choice of words there, founders. Because Meyer and Burger, of course, are two men, Mr. Meyer and Mr. Burger. And really how they came together was about 70 years ago. For those who are fans of watches, right, you’ll know that there are precious stones inside of those or precious gems inside of those, and before Mr. Meyer and Mr. Burger, the holes that were drilled inside of watches were done by hand, and then, of course, those stones were placed by hand. Well, they automated that process. They said, “All right, let’s make it an automation. But let’s also focus on precision.” And so there, kicked off their journey in precision tool manufacturing, right? And when you think about that size of a watch and how small it is, and how that tiny little often like a ruby is placed inside of there, you know, you’ve got to get it right. So that’s where their journey started, was in the precision tooling for the stone in watches. 

Then, over time, other different precision tooling comes in and out of their world, and eventually, they’d start getting into the solar side of things. 

So we’ve spent the past 40 years inside of solar, and there’s a lot of different stories in there, but I can talk about how most of what we’ve done as a company was continued on the tool manufacturing, right, the precision tool manufacturing. So making lines that other solar panel companies have purchased and made their own then, solar panels on, but also a lot of the technology. 

So while Meyer Burger hasn’t necessarily invented things like heterojunction, which at some point in this conversation we’ll talk about, they are certainly the drivers behind what heterojunction is today, and I would argue, they are a technology company that happens to make solar panels, not a solar panel company that happens to use great technology. 

And so they lead with R&D. That is the number one focus. We prioritize making sure our R&D is constantly ongoing. We’re always looking at the future, challenging what that’s going to – what the next technology is to come down the road. 

The Brand Behind the Brand

But those past 40 years, in most of the solar panel companies, you know today, have in some way, shape or form, touched Meyer Burger, either through technology or tools. And we’re kind of what we joke as, the brand behind the brand, right? 

So we’ve got all these solar panel companies throughout the world that have trusted our tools and our technology for their own products. And then, about three years ago, we decided, you know, why don’t we just make our own panels on our own equipment? We know we’re trusted. We’re trusted by, you know, hundreds of companies out there. So why not just make our own products? 

And so that’s where we find ourselves today, is Meyer Burger making our own tools and our own technology for our own panels, all the way through. 

Kerim: Right. And so I guess that is where the term, the brand behind the brand in solar comes from. Because you guys are providing the tools and the tech that goes into these solar factories. And if I remember it correctly from our previous conversations, you guys, used to, you said you’ve been in solar for 40 years. 

And for our listeners who might not be aware, many people are hearing about solar only in the last several years, but 40 years ago, 50 years ago, satellites used to exist, and they used to be powered by solar panels, and there were a lot of off-grid operations in the middle of nowhere for communication towers and other technology that is needed. And so panels were going into those types of solutions. And I’m sure Meyer Burger provided some of the tools and the tech side probably. 

Michelle: Certainly a lot behind a lot of the R&D and the technology side of things, for sure. Yeah, it’s been again, really cool. You know, if you are someone who’s kind of in the depths of, “Hey, how are panels made?” and all that, you know Meyer Burger already. You’ve already been super familiar with them. That’s why we joke about the brand behind the brand, because so many people who really know about the technology of solar evolvement, anything from Mono PERC to heterojunction, they know our brand. 

And now for homeowners that are out there, they’re kind of hearing us for the first time. So we also joke a little bit that we’re like a 70-year startup, right? We’ve got this whole other audience of people that we have to introduce ourselves to and earn their trust and prove that, you know, when it comes to their homes, it is important to pick the right panel. Of course, we believe that our panel is the right panel.

Meyer Burger as a Solar Manufacturer in the US market and beyond

Kerim: Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about Meyer Burger as an original equipment manufacturer in the U.S. market, and what makes it unique in the U.S. market? And maybe talk a little bit about worldwide markets as well. But yeah, let’s dive into your –

Michelle: Yes. So I think one thing I failed to mention and the answer to the previous question is, where are we kind of out of, right? And that leads us to the question you’re actually asking now. So you know, headquartered in Switzerland, actually publicly traded on the Swiss stock market, and then that we have R&D there, and then we have some R&D as well in Germany, as well as our manufacturing. And specifically, when we talk about manufacturing, we talk about both module and cell. So we’re manufacturing cells, but we’re also manufacturing those cells into our own panels.

And so we are opening up a module and cell plant in the US. We made the module announcement about a year and a half ago or so, maybe a little bit longer, and the cell plant this past summer. 

I think a lot of people are like, “Oh, you know, it’s the IRA driving that.” Right? And the reality is, we’ve kind of already had it in plan, but with the IRA was, “We might as well fast-track that.” Right? Because the time is now.” 

And so we are bringing module manufacturing to Arizona. We’re well on the way now. It’s in Goodyear, which is just west of Phoenix. And we’ve got this existing facility that we’ve retrofitted. It’s kind of cool. I’ve got a time-lapse camera, where I can see everything going on. 

But we’ve already got equipment over there. Unboxing of that will happen in the next couple of weeks, and the goal is to have panels off of our first line, (we’ll have three lines in total), off of our first line and then by around the May timeframe, May 2024. 

Meanwhile, we’re also retrofitting an old Intel semiconductor plant in Colorado Springs, Colorado, where we will make our own cells, right? So these cells will go into our panels. So we’ll go from Colorado over to Arizona. 

And really, when I said we talked about bringing manufacturing over. The primary thing was to keep the footprint as small as possible. It’s not very sustainable to ship from Germany to the US consistently. So we were like, “Hey, we’ll bring manufacturing over here, make our footprint much smaller, a much more sustainable brand, and then help run the economy with American-made jobs.” 

And so yes, being able to fast-track that with the IRA was awesome, but always part of the plan because sustainability is a big part of our plan. I’d say, you know, we’ve got these two panels that sort of overlap in our logo, and we say, you know, the one stands for strength and the other one stands for sustainability. 

So we’ve got these two plants with 2-GW capacity. We will have three lines inside of the Arizona plant. The first two are going to be towards our utility scale modules, and you know, 90% of which are pre-sold for the next five years through a few key off-takers, which is great. And then the third line will be dedicated primarily, to our residential audience where we’ll come, we’ll debut a new panel to the market.

Kerim: I’m curious about that. Are you guys going through distribution for those like distributors like Greentech Renewables, BayWa, all that?

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. So all of our current modules that we’ve of course brought in from Germany, until we get up and running here in the US. Yeah, we’re very lucky. We’ve got great partners. You’ve mentioned a couple of them. Greentech, of course, Krannich, McNaughton-McKay. There’s quite a few great distributor partners that we’re working with across the US. And that’s been going great. We’re very thankful for those relationships. BayWa, another great one. Yeah.

What makes Meyer Burger panels different? The Benefits of Glass-on-Glass Solar Panels

Kerim: Yeah. Great. Okay, so let’s dive a little bit into the product if you will wish. 

Michelle: Heck, yeah. This is like this is where we get into the bread and butter, right?

Kerim: Yeah, exactly. 

Michelle: This is where, I don’t know. I hope people get excited because I’m about to be excited. 

Kerim: Yeah. So tell me about, you know, the glass-on-glass differentiation, the Smart Wire connections, and maybe, what makes a 385 Meyer Burger panel more powerful and more economically higher- producing value than a standard 405W panel, which is a topic that you and I briefly discussed. But I’d love to dig deeper into like how – 

Michelle: Great. No, this is great.

Kerim: How come every panel is not the same?

Michelle: I love it, I love it.

Kerim: Yeah. 

Michelle: So let’s start with this, which you mentioned already. The panels that we make in the US will be glass-glass. So that means it has a glass front sheet and a glass back sheet, a little bit different than what you’re seeing as options available now, which is, you know, always glass front sheet, but then maybe more of a standard back sheet, and we’ll use a glass instead. 

So that’s what we’ll do in the US. We’re doing that for a variety of reasons. One, it’s just the best thing that you can do for the cells. It is the most protection you can possibly offer to that cell, and because of that, it lets us extend our warranty from a 25-year warranty to a 30-year warranty. 

It also allows us to produce more because you don’t have to have so many different suppliers, so you can isolate down to a single supplier. We don’t have to buy from a supplier for a standard back sheet and a supplier for glass. We have everything coming from the same. Also means we don’t have to shut down our line and flip it so that we can change out back sheets. So there’s a lot of benefits inside of there. At the end of the day, the primary benefit is protection of the cell. 

And then, of course, you get the benefits of great degradation rates. You know, longevity, longer warranties, et cetera. So that’s the glass-glass side of things. You know, interesting or not.

Benefits of Meyer Burger’s Smart Wire Connection Technology 

The thing that I find the most interesting is we use something called Smart Wire connection technology, which is proprietary to Meyer Burger. We own all the rights to that. But what the heck is it? Why does it matter, right? Because this is like, we’re getting real nerdy right now. 

So basically, Smart Wire connection, it replaces a standard busbar by using these micro wires, and they gather energy more fluently while also strengthening the cell. And speaking of cells, our cells are heterojunction cells, which are slightly different than a Mono PERC. Essentially, you’ve got these two layers on both sides that allow more energy to bounce around inside of there, which produces more kilowatt-hours. 

And now you’re putting the Smart Wire connection technology instead of having these high-heat soldering points in a standard busbar. You’re replacing it with these micro wires. And so now you’ve got cell protection, you’ve got a drastic reduction in micro cracks, and you’ve got a technology that says, “Guess what? Even if you do get some micro cracks because the reality is installers are going to walk on panels.” 

But even if you do get them, the technology allows for the cell to continue producing as if it wasn’t there. So it’s just this really superior way of, at the end of the day, producing more kilowatt-hours for a homeowner on the roof. And that’s really what they care about. But it’s kind of cool to know how it happens. 

So standard busbar, you’ve got the soldering. You’ve got the high-heat points. The Smart Wire you’ve got these micro wires laying on the top and bottom of the cell. 

Now getting even nerdier, right? When you’ve got glass-glass because our cells are bi-facial, and you use glass-glass, now you’re really able to tap into the benefits of that glass-glass. So you’re allowing that sunlight to penetrate through and then reverb or bounce back up and hit the backside of the cell at the same time, and we’ve got the Smart Wire on both sides. 

So for us, we just think you know, Smart Wire connection technology is one of the coolest things and best things that you can do on top of your cell, to protect it and get more energy out of it. 

So that’s one of the things. We, I think you and I talked around – well, let me just pause. Kerim, do you have any questions?

How come a 385W Meyer Burger Panel produces more kWh than a Standard 405W Solar Panel?

Kerim: No. This is great, great level of detail. I guess, one question that I have is, how does all these benefits translate into higher kilowatt-hours per kilowatt, or per watt of panel, over the lifetime of that panel, or of a system? 

Michelle: Yeah. Okay. Ready? We’re going to do a little –

Kerim: How do you guys think about that? Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. We’ll do a little math together. So I’m going to ask you a question, Kerim. What do you think most homeowners, if they’re looking at panels, what’s like kind of the thing that they probably all gravitate to first? What thing is it that they’re probably looking at?

Kerim: The looks. 

Michelle: Okay, looks are definitely important. You’re right. You’re absolutely right. So now, it looks good. Check. 

Kerim: Or now you know, yeah. It kind of looks slick, and you guys do look slick. I know that. And then the next thing is – maybe the first thing is having a good return on investment on the money you’re paying.

Michelle: Yes, that’s exactly right. So they want to get a good ROI. And a lot of times, they look at maybe just the wattage of the panel like, “Oh, well, the higher the wattage, you know, the more ROI I get out of this right?” 

Well, what’s happening is as you get higher wattage, you’re often also making that panel a little bit taller or making that panel a little bit wider. You’re just stretching out that panel. You’re adding another half layer of cells, or maybe another full layer of cells to increase that wattage. 

But at Meyer Burger, we want to give you more without having to like getting massively bigger. So now how do we do that? Right? And that’s ultimately what you’re asking me. So watts, absolutely one part of the equation.

But the next thing we’re going to look at is temperature coefficient. So the temperature coefficient is, how does your panel operate in high temperature environments? And a great analogy I like to use is Kerim, you’ve got your phone. You’ve got your cellphone. I’ve got my cellphone. We’re both sitting at a little beer garden in the middle of July, and there’s no umbrella around. The beer tastes great. But our phones are getting baked in the sun, right? And your phone eventually does what? 

Kerim: It turns off. 

Michelle: Yeah. It turns off or power’s down or it’s like, “I can’t do this.” Right? And the reality is my phone eventually is going to do the same. But the temperature coefficient is measuring how quickly does your phone do that? Or how quickly does that panel slow down production? And how quickly does our panel slow down production? 

And one of the areas that we win at is in that temperature coefficient. So in those high-heat environments, while both panels, a standard panel and our panel will both slow down, ours will never slow down as greatly or as deeply as our competitors. So temperature coefficient, but that alone doesn’t solve it. So now we’ve got watts, we’ve got temperature coefficient. 

And one of the next things we’re going to look at is degradation. Right? So when we’re considering degradation, it’s just like any other major appliance that you would buy. All appliances, over time, will slow down. They will bog down, that’s just the reality of equipment.

What you need to pay attention to is how far and how quickly and so on, I’d say, a standard panel or average industry panel, what we’re seeing is in that 80% to 85% range. So what does that mean? It basically means over the course of, typically speaking, 25 years, that panel will continue to operate at up to 80% or maybe 85% of its original capacity. 

With Meyer Burger, we’re at that 92% mark. So our panel’s degradation rate means that at year-25, it will be operating at 92%. So year one – 

Kerim: So that’s like 0.25% per year degradation which is impressive. Because I remember back in the early 2010s, when I was developing a utility scale solar farm, we would assume like 1%-2% first year, and thereafter, half a percent per year of degradation.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kerim: And so this is like less than half, maybe a third or a fourth of traditional degradation assumption.

Michelle: Yeah. And that it’s important, I think, as if homeowners are listening to this, you know, when you’re looking at modeling software and what people are projecting, year one is your ideal situation. Year one is great, for like literally every one, any solar panel you pick out there. It’s going to look awesome, year one. 

But really, what you want to be paying attention to is what is it over the life of the system? What happens in year two, and three and four? And what is that percentage drop that you just ripped off the top of your head, calculation-wise, right? 

Because that’s the bigger purchase. It’s not how great gas mileage does your car get year one? You didn’t buy a car for one year. You bought a car for, you know, maybe 10 years. How great gas mileage you get after 10 years, that’s the way you need to think about solar panels. How great a production will I get after 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, 25 years? And there’s another part of the equation. So we’ve talked watts, we’ve talked temperature coefficient, we’ve talked degradation.

We could also talk about technology. So we talked briefly about Smart Wire, of course. And then the actual cell inside there, so Mono PERC, which is the industry average. But it’s also the end of its life. Right? We’re just not going to get any better at Mono PERC. It’s not going to be any more awesome. We’ll add different things. We’ll add IBC to it. We’ll add TOPCon to it. We will do things to make it better, but the cell itself is like, man, it’s had a great run, but it’s time to move on. Right? 

So we’d already moved on a while ago into heterojunction, and I talked a little bit about that before, but it’s an N-type cell, with amorphous silicon on both sides, and all said and done, it produces in lower light conditions. That’s one of the ways it’s producing more kilowatt-hours. 

An example I like to give is if we both imagined a light bulb, we have a light bulb connected to a Meyer Burger panel and a light bulb connected to an industry average panel, and the sun started to rise in the morning, well, our light bulb’s going to turn on first, and a little bit later, theirs is going to turn on. 

And then all day long, both light bulbs shining bright, look great, but in the evening, when the sun starts to set, their light bulb will turn off first, and ours will stay on a little bit longer, and that has to do with using N-type heterojunction cell, where it’s able to produce or grab more of the UV rays, of the spectrum of the UV rays, to start producing earlier, later or in poor light conditions. So that’s another aspect of it. 

And then, of course, efficiency. That’s the last letter in all of the letters we’ve just worked through. But all of those things combined, is how you get more kilowatt-hours, and that’s a lot of information.

I would say at the end of the day, if you’re a homeowner, just listening, that’s why, kind of saying, “Hey, what’s my 25-year production? When I’m looking at these two different panels, just tell me my 25-year kilowatt-hour production. That’s important to me.” Not necessarily watts alone. Not necessarily how many panels? Not necessarily degradation in isolation. But all these things combined, then look at the 25-year, and that’s when you’re going to find the decision becomes a lot easier. Then you’ll know. Okay. This is where my money, my ROI, as you said earlier, is actually giving me the bang for the buck.

Kerim: Yeah, I mean, just the degradation. That is a 10% to 15% improvement on lifetime production. And then everything else that you said. I’m sure it could add another 5%, 10%. That’s, you know, that’s essentially one more extra year of payback like, you know, if you assume, most systems have a 3, 4, 5, sometimes 7, 8, 9 year payback, you know, that’s a considerable amount that you are adding to the ROI. 

Michelle: Absolutely, and for people who are really not staying in their homes that long anymore, that ROI, anytime you can shorten it, is super important. 

So yeah, I agree like, but you have to know the whole picture because a year one snapshot doesn’t tell enough of the story. You really do have to look at a year-25 snapshot to understand what you’re buying, and then back into the decision you want to make for yourself.

Kerim: So interesting. This is like, you know, there are hundreds of billions of consumers that buy cars, you know, every 5, 10 years. But there are only such a small percentage of people that actually know the pieces that go into the car and what makes a Mercedes a Mercedes and another brand and that brand, you know? So this is almost like understanding what makes a good solar panel, so thank you for that. 

Michelle: Yeah. You know, I do always like the car analogy. To me, it’s like it’s so confusing. So what did the car industry do? You know, for the most part, they show giant big black letters and numbers that say the miles per gallon. Right? 

And the thing that homeowners need to do is move away from, “Hey, what’s the wattage of the panel? Because that’s maybe the equivalent of saying, “What size is your gas tank?” Right? 

Kerim: Yeah. Right, exactly.

Michelle: Instead, say, “What’s the equivalent of the miles per gallon?” Well, that’s how many kilowatt-hours will I get out of this, over the lifetime of the system. And that, and in most cases, we measure around that 25-year mark. 

So it’s the educational part which we talked about earlier. That’s what I hope we see shift and change is backing away from watts alone and educating. Because I’ll tell you who’s doing it is the C&I Industry, right? Commercial and industrial are looking at those kilowatt-hours, and they already know. That’s why our panels are in carport projects that, like we got a lot of C&I using our 385 or 390 in projects because they get that part of the math. 

But that information that education just hasn’t made its way down to homeowners. And so we often get lost in the minutia of like man, I’ve got a 420 W panel. It’s like, okay, what’s the degradation of that bad boy? Right? Or how’s it going to do in high-heat conditions? Or, you know, all the things we just walked through. So yeah, hopefully, that helps.

What needs to evolve in the Solar Industry to capture a more accurate ROI calculation for Solar Systems?

Kerim: So what needs to change a little bit in the industry for the benefit of Meyer Burger, like products to be more visible to the installer and maybe to the homeowners?

Michelle: Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say, modeling software has to evolve to capture all the things that we just walked through. Right? So making sure that they are factoring temperature coefficient, making sure that they are factoring degradation, making sure that they are showing, very transparently, year one, just as bright and shiny as they show year-25. 

And so I think, making sure modeling software is evolving at the speed that the technology is evolving because if it doesn’t, then it leaves homeowners in the dark on really what they could be or should be buying. 

And that we talked about this goes for anybody who’s releasing a TOPCon panel, anyone who’s releasing an IBC panel. Certainly our heterojunction panels, which we’re not the only ones who have heterojunction. We’re just the best ones, and making sure that the modeling software is capturing all those. Because if it doesn’t, then we’re not being as hyper transparent and honest with the customers we need to be. 

So that’s something that needs to happen. I know a lot of them are doing it and working on it. But I don’t think that all modeling software companies have accomplished that.

I would say, financing needs to change. You know, we have to see a shift inside of this. The interest rates are pretty high, but I think the dealer fees inside of there are really what’s eating up a ton of it. And we need to find a new way to make solar more affordable consistently. 

So not so much relies on the banks, and their determination on how much the dealer fees are going to be, and what the interest rates are going to be. But we have a little bit more stability and consistency for homeowners, so the economy doesn’t change so much, and they can buy at any time that aligns with them, not just when interest rates are really low or not just when dealer fees are really low. So a major shift in the financing that makes a more stable model for homeowners would be important.

I think anybody at Meyer Burger will say this, but transparency of supply chain. You know, we are incredibly proud of our panels, we can prove that no component along the way is ever made with unfair labor, or forced labor, or slave labor. And I’m speaking, specifically out of the Uyghur region in China, right, like we can back into that. Yes, you can have components that come out of China, but they should never, ever be coming out because of forced labor, and just for the sake of making it cheaper, you know, more affordable panel. 

So transparency and supply chain, I think if in Europe and in the US, if homeowners had a big transparency of supply chain, that would change what panels they would buy, and I feel pretty confident they would even spend a couple of pennies more to buy one that didn’t use forced labor. So supply chain, transparency there – huge.

Education on emerging tech, which is what you guys do, right, that’s you. And you just keep doing what you’re doing. That’s it. And then I’ll help you make sure everybody’s listening. But you keep doing what you’re doing. Because that’s important. It changes, it evolves. 

And they can be complex terms and complex ideas. And if people like you can go out there and make them simple and easy to digest and then easy to research later, then you’re doing what you need to be doing. So I’m going to high-five virtually over my Zoom call. 

And I would say, end of life recyclability, you know, that’s not going to be everybody. But for some people, it is important to know, like, “Hey, when this panel, when I want to move on, right, when I want to be done with this panel and get the next technology that’s out there, how recyclable is this panel? Or where is it going? Or does the manufacturer even have a plan for it?”

And I bring it up because I know we do, and I know that ours are super recyclable, right? And I know that we use recyclers in the US. We don’t ship it back over Germany to continue to keep our footprint small and build on that sustainability portion. But you know, we’ve got the support from the U.S. Government for a lot of homeowners that are eligible out there to get solar. 

But at the 30-year mark, what happens right? Or at the 25-year mark, when they’re ready to upgrade, we can’t be setting ourselves up for failure, and a landfill of solar panels that were made without the end in sight. 

And that’s what we do. We make our panels with the end in sight, and while we’re not quite at 100%, my gosh, we are nearly there with our panels.

Kerim: Well, thank you, thank you for all this excellence. 

Michelle: Yeah, I know it’s a lot. I get passionate about this side of things. But that’s why I belong in this industry. 

Kerim: Yeah. That was great. Thank you for sharing a wealth of information with us, Michelle, about Meyer Burger and the industry, overall, and a lot of technical concepts about consumers and buyers of solar assets and need to know about. And this was one great session of good education and information.

Michelle: Seriously, thank you so much for having me on, and for just inviting Meyer Burger, not me, in general, but Meyer Burger, and allowing us to be part of the conversation, and at the end of the day, helping to educate people to make what can often be a big decision. 

So I love that you’re doing what you’re doing. It’s so great to see in here, and anytime you want to welcome us back to keep going with the education conversation, we’re on board. 

Kerim: So keep diving into more and more products and tech and customer stories, and more, hopefully. 

Michelle: Yes, awesome. Thank you.

Kerim: Thank you, Michelle.